Last Week in the Trenches – 2/19/15


Last Week in the Trenches


This conversation was fun. I have to admit. As many of you know, I throw out questions in several discussion groups on Facebook. When somebody responds with an opposing view, I start dialoging with them. If they respond positively, I try and point them to our website and ask them to help us spread this message through liking, following or subscribing to our social media pages. This was an atheist who responded positively to one of my responses to another that I was dialoging, but she didn’t realize that I was a Christian, so she messaged me back, leading into a great conversation about her atheistic explanation of origins. Notice how you don’t have to “know” what somebody else believes, or everything about that belief, in order to dialogue effectively with them. It’s actually much more beneficial to keep asking questions and have them explain what they believe and why they believe it, because in doing so, they reach the logical absurdities and sometimes realize they don’t have the answers they thought they did.

N: Wait what..

You’re helping people out of religion… and into another one?!


Me: Nope … out of religion and into forgiveness of their sins, a relationship with the living Lord Jesus, who indwells those who believe in Him, and lives His life out through Him. … so do you have any spiritual beliefs?


N: Yeah.. like I said. Out of one religion, into another.

No spiritual beliefs.


Me: So don’t call it a belief system. What set of whatever you want to call it do you live your life by?


N: Eh?

I’m an atheist, if that’s what you’re asking.


Me: It is. So you don’t believe that there is a god. Do you have a moral code? If so, what is it based on?


N: Nope. I don’t believe there is a god.

As for morality, the precursor to morality I have through evolution, but the ‘final product’, if you will, comes from thinking and empathizing.


Me: Do you believe in logic? Where do you think that came from?


N: Logic? From my brain.


Me: So how do you know it’s logical?


N: Well, I know that you’re making no sense right now. So.. there you go.


Me: I’m curious as to where you believe the laws of logic that you use and depend on all the time came from. Did nobody have logic prior to your existence, or did they have their origin before you existed?


N: Logic comes from the brain. The brain is a product of evolution.


Me: So what you think is logical is irrelevant because it doesn’t exist outside of your brain?


N: Sure it does


Me: Why? It only exists in your brain. It doesn’t have any origin outside of you, so why should I have to agree to your rules of logic?


N: I never said it only existed inside my brain. I said logic comes from my brain and my brain is a product of evolution. That doesn’t mean that no other brains exist.


Me: So where did the first logic come from? How does logic evolve?


N: First logic? Ugh..

Brains evolve…

Logic is a part of a brain, most likely directly linked to out pattern seeking abilities. It’s a survival trait.


Me: So logic is passed on genetically? How does that work exactly? Who did we inherit it from?


N: Genetically, yes.

Who? Earlier ancestors.


Me: So we all coincidentally have the same survival trait that plays by the same rules that we all seem to agree upon? That’s amazing design you have in your evolution.


N: No!

Evolution isn’t coincidental.

You don’t understand.


Me: Then help me understand. We got logic from earlier ancestors. Where’d they get it from? How did the same rules of logic last all this time? Religions disagree, scientists disagree, historians disagree, but we all seem to agree in this area. Why?


N: Evolution.

Here, let me try to explain this to you. Bare with me though, it’s 4:30 AM and I’m sleepy.

Evolution will select towards beneficial mutations depending on environment. The ability to apply logic or pattern-seeking behavior was a beneficial trait for our ancestors.

So it assisted in our survival, though it wasn’t the only thing that helped us survive.


Me: So if something helps with our survival, we can all the sudden be able to obtain that thing? I saw a video on dinosaurs like that where they explained that it was beneficial for some dinosaurs to jump for longer distances, so they sprouted wings and started flying. … so why is it that I can think of thousands of things that would be beneficial for us in our existence … but we can’t just imagine them into our ability … and then pass it on in our genes to our ancestors.. … how exactly does this magic process take place?


N: What the hell kind of video did you watch? That’s ridiculous!

And it’s not magic. It’s evolution. It’s a natural phenomenon.


Me: It was at a kids museum we went to in Orange County, California. It was trying to explain the evolution of the dinosaurs. And isn’t that what you just said about logic. It was beneficial to our ancestors, so they got logic and passed it on to us…. right?


N: No.

That was not what I said.


Evolution is a slow process. Things don’t SUDDENLY sprout wings.

It’s gradual and slow.


Me: How slow? Is evolution still going on today? If so, can you give me some examples? Are there humans evolving? Are there new creatures coming into existence? Again, I can think of dozens of traits that would be “beneficial” to us as humans, and they’ve been problems for thousands of years, and yet we can’t seem to “evolve” past them. … why is that?


N: Evolution NEVER stops.

Humans are evolving, yes, everything that lives is evolving.


Me: So answer my questions above … if evolution never stops, then it’s going on right now, ….. right?

So how are humans evolving?


N: Just because you can think of a trait doesn’t mean that you can make it appear, it doesn’t work like that.

How are humans evolving? That makes no sense..


Me: That’s exactly what you said. If a trait is beneficial to survival, then evolution will “choose” it. Sounds like evolution is playing god to me.


N: Yes. If it’s beneficial to survival in a certain environment. Natural selection will ‘choose’ that trait.


Me: So why aren’t the things that would be beneficial to survival (take your pick where in the world) being chosen by evolution today?


N: Because natural selection can ONLY select from mutations that occur. Mutations are random, selection is not.


Me: Oh, you mean like down syndrome and things like that … or are you talking x-men type stuff? … are you not aware that most, if not all, mutations are harmful, if not fatal?


N: No..

Mutations are either harmful, neutral or beneficial.

Claiming that ‘most, if not all’ mutations are harmful is nonsense.

Most mutations are neutral.


Me: Actually, I was just trying to search for examples of beneficial mutations. There were only like 5 listed, and none of them were good examples. It was things like lactose tolerance. Really? That’s the amazing evolution going on today. Europeans can drink milk products.


N: Yeah.. that’s not an accurate list. In fact, if you were to list all the beneficial mutation during the entire evolutionary history, you’d need much more than one lifetime..


Me: Think about it … one animal, or human, in the group, develops an abnormality in their DNA. You can call it a mutation. Now they are “different” than all around them, they deviate from the norm, and they don’t know how to use this newfound difference. The odds of them mating, much less surviving, is not likely. The odds that mutation gives them an advantage is really unlikely.


N: Seriously… Did you never attend science classes?


Me: Yeah, that’s the problem. Science doesn’t have the faintest idea of what it’s talking about. Science textbooks change annually, and even when they know for a fact that something’s not true, they don’t take it out of the textbooks. Want an example? Vestigial organs and vestigial DNA … it doesn’t exist, but they taught it, and still do, as evidence of evolution. Experiments that they taught re-created life in a laboratory they keep in even after the person who supposedly performed the experiment admitted it was a hoax. Check it out …



Evolution and Public School Textbooks with Dr Charles Jackson 1 #575

Michael Boehm | Youth Apologetics Training


N: aaaaaaaahahaha vestigial DNA!

As for vestigial organs.. sorry dude.. but they are VERY real


Me: Do your research … no they are not! … here you go again …



Bacterial Resistance to Antibiotics The Myth of Vestigial Organs Yet Another Blow To “Vestigial Organs”: The Leg of the Horse The Recapitulation Misconception


N: Okay.. let me ask you this..

Are you an honest person?


Me: I try … but like us all .. I lie, which is sin. … the only difference between you and I is that I know my sin is forgiven


N: All right.

Are you interested in knowing what is true and what is false?


Me: Absolutely. … but again, how would you define true and false, or explain their existence, according to evolution?


N: Nevermind that.

If you are actually interested in learning the truth… Then I will teach you what evolution actually is and what the evidence for it is.


Me: Why? You’re the one claiming everything came from nothing without the design of an intelligent being … this all makes perfect sense according to my worldview


N: Because websites like these… they’re filled with lies.

I will ONLY do this if you promise to do your part and listen.


Me: I’ve been waiting for you to explain how everything came from nothing. We’ve been stuck on small things like logic and truth, and why they exist.


N: Why should I defend an argument I never made? I never claimed everything came from nothing.

Now are you interested in learning what evolution is or would you rather continue being lied to?


Me: Does listening involve asking questions if I need you to clarify terms or explain something?

Okay … so what does evolution look like if everything didn’t come from nothing?


N: Of course. asking questions is a good thing


Me: Great .. because I hope you can see that is all I’ve been doing this entire time


N: Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the universe, it’s the origin of SPECIES.


Me: Then evolution doesn’t explain anything … what existed prior to the origin of species … and origin of species still implies that at one time species didn’t exist, and then, at some point, they did …. how did that happen?


N: Through evolution.


Me: How? … what existed prior to the first species? … how did the first species come to be?


N: Okay.. let’s see if I can explain this to you..

All species that live today. ALL species. Plants, insects, animals. EVERYTHING shares a common ancestor.

Now.. the first species…

The first biological entity was self-replicating organisms.


Me: So the first one-celled organism, which came with all of these parts, was able to replicate itself, just appeared … how did that happen? That’s not an explanation. That’s a description.


N: How it appeared is a different scientific field. I’m an evolutionary biologist, not chemist

So. Can we move along now?


Me: Do you really want to move along? We haven’t resolved the beginning point issues. If you build on this foundation, the whole house will collapse.


N: Ugh. Okay fine! Odin created the first life! Done! Can we move onto evolution now?


Me: So at this point you wouldn’t be an atheist … you believe in Odin, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Evolution aside, that’s where we are. …. do you really believe in Odin, or do you believe in something else before the origin of species?


N: What is wrong with you Americans? !

I am trying to get you to focus on the actual topic. Not everything else!


Me: This conversation started out by you saying you were an atheist, and then you started talking about evolution as the reason why you’re an atheist, as your explanation for why you have morals, how you believe we got here. What happened to that?


N: I never said evolution was the reason for me being an atheist. But whatever. Don’t bother learning anything. Just continue lying to yourself and everybody else.


Me: I was hoping you would explain where we came from, but you don’t have an explanation for that. You believe in evolution, but you have no idea what happened before that. Yet you insist on being an atheist. Aren’t you a bit uncomfortable not having an explanation for why you exist, a reason to do right, an accountability for those who do wrong, especially to you, or those you love?


N: I don’t believe in evolution. I accept it as a fact due to the overwhelming amount of evidence. I already have explanations for those things.


Me: Wow … fact … that’s a big claim …. So were you there, or did you hear this from somebody who was?


N: Big claim? No. It’s a truthful claim. Were I where?


Me: Were you there to see the first species come into existence?

In any case, I’ll let you get some sleep. My class just ended. Got to head home. Thanks for talking. Feel free to keep messaging.


N: No. Don’t need to. I’ve got the evidence to examine