Last Week in the Trenches – 2/20/15

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Last Week in the Trenches

2/20/15

On to subject three of my conversation with the one you have come to know as “V.” He has now transitioned toward defending the LDS view that we can become gods. So, we have established, that V believes that there is “not” one God, God didn’t mean it when He said 19 times in the Old Testament that there is one God, Jesus is God #2, and now he’s defending the view that you and I are “gods in embryo” and God’s goal for our lives is to become a god “like Him.”

V: You want to insist on monotheism when the Bible is replete with passage that talks about the plurality of gods. Even Jesus said “ye are gods” (plural). That’ should give you pause and think about a concocted idea of a three persons in one God. The trinity is a strange concoction that wasn’t by Jesus himself.’

 

You’ve been jumping all over the place…. focus on this original question I posed. Why is your “homoousios” Jesus not supported in the Scriptures? Why is that? Care to answer that now?

 

Me: Glad you brought that verse up …. let’s take a look at that … Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36)

So, who was He talking to? The Pharisees .. is it your contention that Jesus was saying that the Pharisees are gods?

 

Is it also your contention that Jesus was teaching that we are “present tense” gods? The verse is in the present tense, not future, not even conditional. The Pharisees were unbelieving at the time, so does that mean that all human beings, including those who don’t believe, are present tense gods?

 

V: Are you denying Jesus then? Are you saying he lied when he said “ye are gods”. Are you saying he doesn’t mean what he meant?

Jesus said it was written in the law that he said “Ye are gods”.. and he ask a rethorical.. why say he blaspheme calling himself son of God when the scripture says “ye are gods” (plural). They were in their monotheistic thinking like you are now.

 

Monotheism is garbage Jesus is saying… there are plurality of gods. Yes all human beings are spirit sons and daughters of Deity (our Father in Heaven)… thus are gods (in embryo).

 

All of us have the potential to become like our Father in Heaven (Matt. 5:48). Satan and his minions have squandered that potential and will never become like Him. Some (like you) are also in the same path as Satan who squandering your potential to be come like your Father in Heaven by rejecting God’s restored truths.

 

But its your choice. You can remain ignorant on how to become like our Father in Heaven. Or you can humble yourself to be taught by the Spirit of God. It’s your choice.

Btw.. were you former Mormon? Seems like you have an idea  (albeit incoherently) some of the LDS doctrines.

 

Me: No…. I’m not a former Mormon. God, yes that’s right, the leading of the Holy Spirit that you claim I need and don’t yet have, gave me a heart to reach out to my best friend in High School who was LDS, after he came out of the LDS church and into a relationship with the biblical Jesus, God gave me a heart to reach out to LDS, and subsequently those caught in religion period. He’s given me an understanding of how truly amazing His grace is, not only for forgiveness, but the reality that truly, as Jesus said, “Apart from Him, we can do nothing,” and as Paul said, “It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.”

 

As for what I believe Jesus was saying in John 10 in alluding to Psalm 82 is that the Pharisees, his audience and critic, were supposed to be in the position of judge/shepherd over the people, and in that sense God referred to them in Psalm 82 as “gods,” which by the way is the word Elohim in the Hebrew, which isn’t the proper name of God the Father.

 

The verse Jesus was referring to is Psalm 82:6. Notice what verse 7 says, “but ye shall die like men.” Doesn’t exactly sound divine.

 

Jesus didn’t say that the Pharisees, or the leaders in the Old Testament, or us, were or are gods as in we’re equal with Him. He definitely didn’t say “gods in embryo.”

 

V: ”Ye are gods…” And even said the Scriptures never lie.

I guess you make Jesus a liar…

 

But then again, I doubt you capture the essence of what Jesus was saying when he said “ye are gods…”

 

Get rid of you monotheistic garbage and you’ll understand the spirit of his teachings.

 

Me: You didn’t say anything to represent your viewpoint on why you believe Jesus was teaching LDS doctrine in that verse, or any reasons why my argument or way of interpreting that passage was invalid. You just restated a very small portion of the passage and then said I was wrong and calling Jesus a liar. I didn’t say Jesus was a liar or that the passage didn’t have a correct interpretation. I gave you my interpretation and then asked you to clarify yours with some questions I have about how you get to that conclusion.

 

Let me give you an example of what you just did and why it’s completely off base. “ye are gods …” (Isaiah 41:23)

V: Yes you are calling Jesus a liar, (SHAME ON YOU!) because you are saying that he didn’t meant what he said to the Pharisees that “ye are gods…” You are like the Pharisees in that verse condeming JEsus for being the son of God because they think there is only ONE God (like your beliefs). The Jewish religion is monotheistic and Jesus blasted their beliefs to smitherins by saying that Scriptures cannot lie when He said “ye are gods”.

You keep bringing up Isaiah out of context… We’re past that book. We’ve already agreed that references to ‘gods” in Isaiah refers to IDOLS. And God is comparing himself to them by saying that they are “nothing”(v.24). That he is the only one who can save. It doesn’t mean that he is the only God in the universe. Get rid of your false beliefs in monotheism. It’s a false belief that the Master Himself already debunked.

This is an interesting read on the topic we are discussing about “ye are gods…” Read and learn.

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reconsidering-psalms-826

Reconsidering Psalms 82:6 – FairMormon

www.fairmormon.org

Me: I’ve been away from the discussion a few days because I’ve been trying to pour through that article you sent me. In fact, I had so many questions and thoughts about the article that I put together a rebuttal. Here it is. I’ve given my thoughts, now I’d be interested to hear yours. One thing I would love to know is if you agree with the article you sent me wholeheartedly, or if you have questions or issues on parts of it? http://wp.me/p2TS5d-eK

A Rebuttal to the FairMormon Interpretation of Psalm 82:6

www.peopleofthefreegift.com

Link to part 1 of this conversation

Link to part 2 of this conversation